MC: Crossfire. On the left, Tom Braden, on the right, Robert Novak, in the crossfire, Washington Times columnist John Lofton, and rock musician Frank Zappa.

Tom Braden: Good evening. Welcome to Crossfire. What you've got here is suggestive, and I don't find it objectionable, but when you actually listen to the words of the song, you get a shock. Personally, I find some of them in such bad taste as to make me physically ill. And some of them I wouldn't have in the house. Now on the other hand, do we want the government to ban this [...] records, with lyrics the government doesn't like? Do we want the government to say, "This is okay, but this one would have to go"? And who should be the government censor, whose job should it be to listen all day to dirty records and decide whether you can? Do you want censorship or records, as it now has been proposed in Maryland, and in congressional hearings, or do you want to make the decision on your own? Take it, or leave it, all by yourself. Bob.

Robert Novak: Mr. Zappa, let me see if I can get your position straight. Are you saying that there is no filth, no pornography, no obscenity that should not be permitted to be sold and distributed freely in this country in the form of music videos and rock music?

FZ: I don't think that music qualifies as pornography. And specially since this whole business started with words, we're talking 'bout words here.

Robert Novak: Right.

FZ: All the complaints are about words.

Robert Novak: AlrightAll right, take the pornography out. That it, there's no filth, no obscenity, that you think would qualify to be suppressed.

FZ: We're talking about words, and I don't believe that there's any word that needs to be suppressed. There's no scientific or, uh, realistic reason why you should keep people from hearing certain words.

Tom Braden: Yeah, but there . . .

Robert Novak: [...] that I . . .

Tom Braden: Mr. Zappa, there are certain words you use that describe an act of fornication which are brutal.

FZ: So?

Tom Braden: Well . . .

Robert Novak: How about putting them on the radio? [...] on the radio. You think they should be?

FZ: Yes.

Robert Novak: You think they should be on the radio.

FZ: Absolutely.

Robert Novak: And on television.

FZ: Absolutely. And in politics. Because it's already in politics. I think that if you use these [...] strong words, you get your point across faster, and you can save a lot of beating around the bush. Why are people afraid of words?

John Lofton: Well, look, Mr. Zappa, we're not talking about just words. We're talking about rock videos, we're talking about . . .

FZ: We're not talking about rock videos.

John Lofton: I beg your pardon . . .

FZ: The whole thing is words.

John Lofton: I beg your pardon, but what they're trying to . . .

FZ: They're selling it with rock videos.

John Lofton: . . . restrict in Maryland is also obscene rock videos . . .

FZ: No, they are not.

John Lofton: They are.

FZ: Words.

John Lofton: They're trying to apply the obscenity language to videos and to records. But why do you underestimate the power of words? Words have consequences, they have impact on people. Now, I agree with you that the first line of responsibility is the family to stop the kind of garbage that we're talking about here today, but, good grief, can't we call on our government to help us in this fight, Frank? I mean, you have kids, are you an anarchist? That is, the government's role is to do nothing about this?

FZ: No, I'm a conservative. And you may not like that, but I am. And the fact of the matter is this bill that they're talking about in Maryland is stupid.

John Lofton: How so? What is the function of government, Frank, the civil government? Isn't it in part promote the general welfare and to help protect families?

FZ: Do you think that you're protecting somebody by taking away seven words?

John Lofton: It's not just words.

FZ: It is words. It's about words.

John Lofton: Words also connote ideas, Mr. Zappa. Are you for songs that portray incest as just another kind of sex and perhaps even preferable sex? Are you for that?

FZ: Would you ban the mention of any incestual activities? Would you?

John Lofton: Well, why don't we make . . .

FZ: Why don't you better take a look at the Bible and see what's in there, what happens up in Sodom and Gomorrah.

John Lofton: The Bible does not advocate incest, it condemns it, Frank.

FZ: But it mentions it. It mentions it.

John Lofton: Are we talking about advocay, Mr. Zappa?

FZ: No, we're not. We're talking about words.

John Lofton: No, we're not talking about words.

FZ: We're talking about the content of the words.

John Lofton: Oh, you don't think words connote ideas, uh?

FZ: Yes. They can be assembled in a sense as to get ideas across.

John Lofton: Well, how 'bout answering my question about incest? Do you support records that promote incest as just another kind of sex, or in some instances it might even be preferable, you agree with that?

FZ: No, I don't agree. Whether I have no interest in incest, but I don't think that anybody in his right mind would desire to have the government step in to make sure that they install a censor board that keep certain things from being said.

Robert Novak: Let me ask you something, Mr. Zappa . . .

FZ: Because sometimes the dumbest thing that gets said makes the point for you, and if a person is doing a song about incest, it gives you a chance to say, "Maybe incest is really wrong." I didn't realize that incest was such a terrible problem in the United Sates so we suddenly need the government intervention to cure incest in America by keeping words off of records.

Robert Novak: Mr. Zappa, I . . .

John Lofton: Incest in America didn't use to be such a terrible problem. Did it, Mr. Zappa? That's come about in the last twenty years or so.

Tom Braden: Oh, my God, that's not so.

John Lofton: Oh, really? Not as a problem. Not advocated in songs.

Robert Novak: I understand your position on government censorship, but, you're a musician, you're a producer, big man in show business, do you think that it's a good idea—let's not say that the government is gonna get in this all—just, just as a matter of taste, of artistic [...]—do you think it's a good idea to write lyrics that says, "Incest is good for you." Does it make any sense?

FZ: Well, it might make sense to Prince, that's his business, because that's mainly the song that we're talking about, okay?

Robert Novak: But don't you have an opinion about it?

FZ: My opinion is he's got a right to sing it, he's got a right to say it, I've got a right to not buy it or . . .

John Lofton: Where does that right come from, Mr. Zappa? Where does the right to advocate incest come from?

FZ: That song does not advocate incest!

John Lofton: No. There are songs that advocate incest.

FZ: Tell me, then. I never heard them.

Robert Novak: Since incest . . .

John Lofton: Well. You ought to get out more, I don't think you've been candid with this. You know what those songs are. Now, you said there's a right to do this.

FZ: Yeah.

John Lofton: Where does the right come from? Your group was called The Mothers Of The Invention.

FZ: Mothers Of Invention.

John Lofton: The Mothers Of Invention.

FZ: You ought to get out more.

John Lofton: Yeah. And you're a very inventive guy. You make up a lot of stuff, like what was on the mind of the Founding Fathers. Would you look in the camera and tell 'em . . .

FZ: Which camera?

John Lofton: Any camera. And tell 'em . . .

Tom Braden: Ha, ha, ha!

FZ: What, you're directing the show now?

John Lofton: Yeah. That's right. Well, you certainly need some direction, Mr. Zappa.

FZ: Wanna spank me here? Come on, what you're trying to do?

John Lofton: Oh, you're into that too! Oh, no, I'm not into spanking . . .

FZ: I love it when you froth like that.

John Lofton: Yeah, I'm sure. Now, would you tell our viewers of what the Founding Fathers . . .

FZ: I thought he was gonna be the one frothing today, I'm glad that you . . .

John Lofton: You are wrong again, Frank, wrong again. Now . . .

FZ: I've got a napkin for you when you drool.

John Lofton: Would you tell us? Excellent. Thank you very much.

FZ: Him too. You too.

John Lofton: Now, would you look in the camera and tell 'em with a straight face . . .

FZ: Yeah.

John Lofton: . . . that you think the Founding Fathers had in mind the kind of garbage you're singing right—when they drafted the First Amendment, you really believe that, Mr. Zappa?

FZ: I don't think it applies. The Founding Fathers for one thing kept slaves, and take a look at what Benjamin Franklin used to do over the Hellfire Club.

John Lofton: But you have repeatedly . . .

FZ: Not exactly a bunch of swell guys.

John Lofton: I agree with you, I agree with you . . .

FZ: I think they had some good things in mind, but we have a document, the letter of the law.

John Lofton: Yeah.

FZ: Let's use the letter of the law, and interpret it in the 20th Century, okay?

John Lofton: But, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, it is relevant because you have repeatedly in opposing even ratings for rock music—you have repeatedly [...] the Constitution and the First Amendment. Do you think the Founding Fathers really had the First Amendment—that they gave us the First Amendment to defend songs that glorify sadism and incest and suicide, you really believe it?

FZ: Absolutely.

John Lofton: You really believe that?

FZ: Yeah, I believe it.

John Lofton: You're an idiot, then.

FZ: Yeah?

John Lofton: You're an idiot.

FZ: Well, I'll tell you what, kiss my ass! How'd ya like that, buddy?

John Lofton: They could [...], they could [...].

Robert Novak: [...] Let's call . . .

FZ: Yeah.

John Lofton: Now. Yeah.

FZ: Yeah.

John Lofton: Come on . . .

FZ: Come on, let's froth.

John Lofton: Yeah. [...]

FZ: It's better [...].

Robert Novak: Mr. Zappa, one thing you did—I didn't think you'd do—is you ducked the question. I thought . . .

FZ: Which one?

Robert Novak: I understand your position on the government, I understand you have an absolutist position on the First Amendment—a lot of people have an absolutist position, but I asked you a question and you ducked it. I want you to tell me if you think that the lyrics saying that incest is a good thing have any artistic value or are in good taste, or if you approve, you must have some [...] of your own, I'm not talking about the government.

FZ: You asked me for my opinion. I don't enjoy that kind of material, I'm not here to sell records for Prince or anybody else.

John Lofton: Yeah, but you defend [...], don't ya?

FZ: Yes. I do defend [...]

John Lofton: Yeah, but then you're part of the problem.

Tom Braden: No, John . . .

Robert Novak: But don't you think it would be a good thing to say some of these people to cool it?

FZ: No. It's not my job.

John Lofton: What is your job?

FZ: My job is to represent myself . . .

John Lofton: What is your job? You once wrote a song called "We're Only In It For The Money."

FZ: That's not a song, it's the name of an album. You ought to get out more.

John Lofton: Yeah. How much money you made [...] stuff, Mr. Zappa?

FZ: Millions of dollars.

John Lofton: Yeah, yeah.

FZ: Millions of dollars, Mr. Lofton.

Tom Braden: AlrightAll right, look. It seems to me, Mr. Zappa, that you've got to ask to these people [...]

FZ: Excuse me, he's accusing me of doing something that is similar to what has been aired, but my lyrics aren't in question here.

John Lofton: They're not?

FZ: They're not.

Tom Braden: What would you propose, Mr. Lofton, as the means of censorship?

John Lofton: Well, I said I agree with Mr. Zappa that the first line of defense of responsibility is the parents, but what I do not agree with is that the parents have to stand alone and we are not entitled to call on our government to help us in the fight . . .

Tom Braden: AlrightAll right, now, wait a minute.

John Lofton: I mean . . .

Tom Braden: What government—Wait a minute, John? What government censor is gonna decide for you?

John Lofton: It's not . . . Tom, I've heard you said repeteadly on the show that we are our government, that we're allowed to call on our government.

Tom Braden: But you have to have a man who is the censor [...]

John Lofton: [...]

Tom Braden: You have to decide this Lofton can hear, and this Lofton cannot hear.

John Lofton: Tom, it would work the way the implementation of any law works. You pass the law, it has words in it, and then the—like the representatives of the people try their best to apply it. It's the way you do with everything else. Will they apply it perfectly? No! But we're entitle to use the force of our civil government to help protect our families. I think you oppose that. Does the government have any purpose, Frank?

FZ: Yeah, it has a number of purposes. I'm not gonna give you a civics lesson here, but I'll tell you one thing, we must not see eye to eye on the idea of a government that must forbid things in order to protect families.

John Lofton: Well, what is the government's role? You told me . . .

FZ: How about national defense . . .

John Lofton: Yeah, I can [...] national defense but our families are under attack from people like you with these lyrics.

Tom Braden: John, you don't have to buy them!

Robert Novak: Mr. Zappa . . .

FZ: Can I make a statement about national defense?

John Lofton: Yeah.

FZ: The biggest threat to America today is not communism, it's moving America towards a fascist theocracy. And everything that has happened during the Reagan administration is steering us right down that pipe.

Robert Novak: Oh, Mr. Zappa . . .

FZ: Yes, Mr. Zappa.

Robert Novak: Do you really think—I mean ...

FZ: I really think.

Robert Novak: All kidding aside, in this country, with the permissiveness that we are moving towards a fascist theocracy . . .

FZ: We are, buddy.

Robert Novak: Do you think things . . .

FZ: Come on, give me that famous smile again.

Robert Novak: When we were kids—you're about my age . . .

FZ: I'm 45.

Robert Novak: Well, I'm 55. Do you think when I was a kid they would permit songs like that to be sung? I mean, permissiveness is the game, I mean, you're not really serious if you say we are going towards a fascist theocracy . . .

FZ: That's right. We are.

Tom Braden: Wait a minute.

Robert Novak: [...] give me . . .

Tom Braden: Bob . . .

John Lofton: Wait, wait, wait . . .

Tom Braden: One example, one example of a fascist theocracy.

FZ: When you have a government that prefers a certain moral code derived from a certain religion and that moral code turns into legislation to suit one certain religious point of view and if that code happens to be very, very right wing almost toward Attila the Hun . . .

John Lofton: Well, then you are an anarchist. Every form of civil government is based on some kind of morality, Frank.

FZ: Morality in terms of behaviourbehavior—not in terms of theology.

John Lofton: Of course, of course, but look, I mean. I can't believe in your theory . . .

Tom Braden: John, John . . .

Robert Novak: Okay, wait a minute, gentlemen. We have to take a break now, and we're back with John Lofton, Frank Zappa, talking about rock music, I think, after these messages.

++11:48/12:00++

 

1: Out of the concern that rock & roll was getting out of hand, since then, some record producers have agreed to label their records, the way movies are rated, for sex and violence. Others have started printing lyrics on album covers, so the parents can preview them. But other producers have refused to comply and musicians such as Frank Zappa complain that the whole movement is silly at first, ... censorship at worst. Rock & roll is here to stay. ... Peter?
Peter: Frank Zappa, the sexual revolution failed, and now we've entered the age of AIDS, whether you and your compatries into the rock industry doing to handle the responsibility?
FZ: It's not my responsibility.
Peter: It's not your responsibility? You think that the power of persuasion the music has over young people in America has anything to do with what's going on, and the problems we're having with sex?
FZ: No.
Peter: It's as simple as that? So you don't think three thousands kids getting pregnant a day and a thousand other getting abortion a day is a problem that relates to rock music and sex lyrics?
FZ: No.
Peter: Amazing.
1: Well, Mr. ..., let's o